What The Heck Is Mindful(ish) Eating ft. The Nutrition Diva
You probably hear about mindful eating all the time, but maybe you think to yourself, how am I actually supposed to do this? There are so many things that are making us mind-LESS eaters: our phones, our food environment, our obsessive food tracking. In a world of calorie trackers and endless TikToks to scroll through, how can we learn to be more mindful eaters, enjoy our food more, and maybe even make better food choices in the process? Today, we talk to Monica Reinagel, The Nutrition Diva, all about mindful-ish eating.
Check out Monica’s podcast The Nutrition Diva and her app The Nutrition GPA!
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Juna: Food We Need to Talk is funded by a grant from the Ardmore Institute of Health. Home, a full plate living. Welcome back to another episode today. We are talking about something that I think has been quite buzzworthy for a long time and that is mindful eating.
Eddie: Buzzworthy. I love that. You know, I know even at the conferences that I attend now and the conferences that I run, there's always some sort of talk about mindful eating. It's kind of everywhere.
Juna: Well, okay, I don't know about you, but I am a notorious, mindless eater. Like a way to fast. It's like whenever I'm eating with someone I know, I'm going to be the one that finishes first. And then also, I think a fourth of the food I eat in a day is probably eaten in passing or while standing out, like walking through the gate. Guys, I can't walk through my kitchen without like grabbing a piece of dark chocolate. It's like it's like the payment I make to walk through the kitchen. It's like I take dark chocolate.
Eddie: Well, it's definitely something for us all to work on. I mean, sometimes when we're on the phone, we're doing our podcast stuff. I'm actually eating my lunch and we're trying to figure out the next episode and talk about multitasking and about mindlessly eating. Guilty.
Juna: Yeah, here I go. Like, yeah. So tomorrow let's let's talk about skipping today or talking about something that I think all of us need to be better at practicing. Not only would we enjoy our food more, but we'd probably also make better decisions if we just all ate a little bit more mindfully. On today's episode, what is mindful and mindful ish eating? Why should we care and how can we actually do it if we're a notorious mindless eater? I'm Juna Gjata.
Eddie: And I'm Dr. Eddie Phillips, associate professor at Harvard Medical School.
Juna: And you're listening to Food We Need to Talk. The only podcast that you can listen to while eating and still have it count as mindful eating. And welcome to our guest today, Monica Wrangle of the Nutrition Diva podcast. Monica, thank you so much for being with us today.
Monica: Very excited to be here with you both.
Juna: So the first thing that I wanted to ask you is I was reading your bio and I was astonished because there was culinary school. There was a music school. I saw you being an opera singer, so I was like, Wait, this is my lady. Because, you know, I used to want to be a classical pianist. I was like, My woman understands.
Monica: When I saw your bio, I thought, Oh, we have a lot in common. Basically.
Juna: I just want to ask you, how did you get into the nutrition stuff from what you were doing?
Monica: Well, necessity is the mother of retraining, right? So I did go to music school and I worked as a professional opera singer for about ten years here in the States and also in Germany. But I did finally get to the point where it was hard to see like an entire life's worth of career unfolding in front of me. Yeah. And I realized I was probably going to need some other means of support. Fortunately, I had this interest in health and nutrition, just a sort of layperson's interest in it. Although singers are always kind of focused on physical health and nutrition because of course our bodies are our instruments. So there is, for better or for worse, a lot of focus on, you know, what to eat and all of that. I'm not sure we always get it right, but there is that. That is right. So I had that interest in it and I happened to get a job for a publishing company that had a health press and I was hooked and just started working my way up, mostly through the publishing industry, writing, editing, and eventually went back to school, got a graduate degree in nutrition, got my licensure, but always with the intention of using that education and that information to do what we do now, which is to create podcasts, write books, articles, you know, content information for people who were interested in learning more. I wanted to be a source of credible nutrition information because, as we both know, there's a lot of incredible nutrition information floating around.
Eddie: And for our listeners who may not yet be familiar with the body of work and the number of years that you've been at this, can you introduce nutrition diva to us?
Monica: So the name of that podcast actually was a little bit of an inside joke because of my music background and my theme music as well is the entrance of the Queen of Sheba from Handel Opera Live trivia.
Juna: Amazing.
Monica: But we launched that podcast in 2008, so we are celebrating our 15th anniversary this summer, which is I can't believe that we reached this milestone when we began. It was sort of a lark, you know, It's like, well, I hear people talking about podcasting, whatever that is. And yeah, sure, well, we'll give it a try. And I thought it would be sort of a flash in a pan, like people would be interested in a while and then they'd move on to something else. I did not foresee that podcasting would become such a huge part of our media escape and such a satisfying medium to work in. I love being a podcaster. I saw on your LinkedIn profile, you know that you you say I'm basically a performer at heart and I really identify with that. I think what I enjoy most about podcasting and public speaking are a lot of the same things that I enjoyed about performing. You know, I guess I'm just a ham.
Juna: You know, It's so true because I think about the part I loved about piano was the concerts. Yeah. And the part I hated about piano. Was that the same thing? I was like, How do I do the concerts with none of the practicing? Hmm. So there's a little bit of prep involved in podcasting, but it's not like hours and hours and hours of saying the same thing over and over and over. Just try to get that inflection perfect or whatever. Good point. So what we want to talk to you about today was the topic of mindful eating, because as a person who has spent many, many years tracking food, I just found the whole idea of mindful eating extremely intimidating. It seemed like it was supposed to be this thing that should be easy for everybody to do because, you know the rhetoric around it a lot of the time is like, Well, just eat like you did when you were a child and don't worry about things and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I can't turn my brain off. People like, I don't know, it just seemed so, so difficult to me and tracking was so much easier. So I just really wanted to break it down with you today because I understand that you are an expert in mindful ish eating.
Monica: That's right. And you are not alone. I mean, ironically, mindful eating. It's like, you know, meditating and gratitude, journaling and yoga is supposed to make us healthier and happier and more relaxed. But ironically, a lot of people that I work with end up feeling super stressed out about it because they feel like they it's they can't do it right or they know they should be doing it and they feel guilty about not doing it. And I think that this is all based on some misunderstandings, one of which you just alluded to, that mindful eating is somehow the opposite of keeping track. You know that if you're eating mindfully, then you should automatically know how much you should be eating. I think there are so many misconceptions about mindful eating. And a lot of people have tried it felt like they failed at it or found it just miserable, like it took all of the pleasure out of eating and rightfully abandoned it. So mindful ish eating is my attempt to kind of reclaim what I see as some real value and benefit to this and discard some of the baggage that we seem to have picked up along the way.
Eddie: So when I when I first heard the phrase mindful eating, I guess I was not prone to hyper recording and using apps and taking pictures. That's like our new grace. We sit down, we take a picture and post to Instagram. Okay, now we can eat. I like that would not define me. So is mindful eating about doing that tracking or is it about transcending that and just sort of saying, I feel as though I need fluids now and therefore I will drink and I will enjoy them, but maybe go a little deeper into what it looks like when you're doing it well.
Monica: Well, the way I define mindful eating is just being more aware of our experience when we're eating or when we have an urge to eat, a desire to eat. And just tuning in a little bit more to our physical sensations, and that would include learning to recognize and trust. Things like hunger signals and satiety signals goes way beyond that, though it's also being aware of thoughts or feelings that may be part of that desire to eat. What's driving that urge or desire to eat? It can be so many different things, and the reason to pay attention to those things is that sometimes it can allow us to respond more effectively. So if one of the things that's driving us to want to eat something is that we're feeling sad or bored or lonely and we want to just escape from that unpleasant feeling, If we're a little bit more aware of that, then we might consider, Is there something else I could do to address that unpleasant feeling that might actually be more effective? But I think it also opens the door for us to realize like, No, I want to eat. I have a desire to eat this because it looks delicious. It's, you know, it really looks appealing. I'm not technically hungry right now, but this looks special, you know, Do I want to go ahead and enjoy this? And just to be conscious of that choice so that we can actually enjoy it may be a useful distinction. Edie, is that the opposite of mindful eating is mind less eating. And when we're eating mindlessly, we're not paying attention. It can be a time when we eat more than we mean to. It can lead us to eat food that we're not even particularly enjoying because we're not paying attention. But even more tragically, it can rob us of the actual pleasure of food that is enjoyable because we're just checked out. We're not paying attention.
Juna: I think part of the reason why tracking made me so mindless of an eater, I would say, was even though there is all this energy going into like how many grams of protein in my eating, how many calories is it, what time my eating it out. There is so much data. And yet it was like my pleasure around the food was it didn't matter. It was like nonexistent. Like it didn't matter how things tasted. It didn't matter if I was full, if I was hungry, if I had this much protein the day I would like eat to the point where I was overly full because I had to eat this much protein. And there was other days when I was hungry, but I was like, No, no, this meal is only supposed to be this many calories. So I stop there. And so I think after doing that for years, it's just the idea of, am I hungry now? I was like, I don't know, like if my stomach growls, I know. But beyond that, I just I have no idea. Right.
Monica: We have a lot that we can draw on to start answering that question. One of them might be a physiological sensation, but by the way, your stomach can be growling right after you've eaten. That's not always a good sign. But remember, we also have, like, cognitive tools at our disposal. We can also consider, well, how long has it been since I've eaten? Could I really be hungry 20 minutes after finishing that meal? Or is this hunger, as I like to say, you know, a sheep in wolf's clothing. So we have physical sensations? Absolutely. But then we can also think about, well, you know, when's the last time I ate? How big was that meal? How long before my next meal? Another thing that people who have severed their relationship between their physical response to food and the food is they perceive hunger as an emergency.
Juna: Mm hmm. Yes.
Monica: And. Part of this is having been trained by media and other influencers saying that, you know, if you don't eat every X number of hours, your metabolism will shut down, your metabolism will slow. And we internalize that message to the extent that when people I work with people all the time, that the moment they have a sensation, which is really just I am not currently full, they panic and everything else has to wait until they can eat something. They carry food around so that there will never be more than 60 seconds between noticing that they are not currently full and, you know, being able to eat and somehow it's wound up in their minds with keeping their metabolism going. So yeah, we've really lost track of our relationship to food, I think, and mindful ish eating as a way to start rebuilding a little bit more trust both in ourselves and our ability to make good choices. But also, I want to say a little bit more trust in food as not the enemy.
Eddie: I'm kind of struck by the part about like all of a sudden I'm hungry. It's an emergency. Is that a reflection of or I don't know, millennia of humankind starving? You know, basically the main task was to go out and hunt and gather enough food so that you wouldn't be constantly hungry or you'd have enough energy to actually go out and get more food.
Monica: Well, I'm speculating here because, of course, we don't know what was going on in hunter gatherer days, but I would imagine that going long stretches without food was a much more frequent occurrence. You hunt when you can, you you eat when you can. And that, you know, being hungry was not as big a deal then, that there wasn't an expectation that I should never feel any hunger.
Eddie: Got it.
Monica: So I tend to think that it's much more modern than that, Eddie, And more having to do with this indoctrination, this weird idea about our metabolism, and that eating more frequently keeps our metabolism running faster, which is obviously a myth, but but it's a very successful one.
Juna: I also think for me, because I spent so many years not eating enough, it became kind of a traumatic response and felt like I never wanted to be hungry because I was like, I just had so many years of always being hungry that I became very, very intolerant of it. And I think if you've been eating enough for a while, then it stops being such a big deal. But I know for me for sure it was really tied to like, I don't ever want to be hungry again.
Monica: Right? And think about it, kids who grew up in food insecure housing or food insecure situations and they frequently experience not just the little tummy rumbling, but true hunger. Mm hmm. Frequently and consistently and over long stretches of time. And what you've just described, you know, I think explain something that people sometimes struggle to understand why people who are food insecure are so much more likely to be living with overweight or obesity.
Juna: Yes, that's so true. I'm actually yeah, I haven't thought about that in a long time. The other question I have for you is about enjoying your food. I think that's another thing that I really got disconnected from, was actually enjoying the food you're eating and something that I've noticed and this might be just my experience. So it's not it's not a scientific finding. People. Okay, I'm going to disclaim that. But I've just noticed that the people who I know in my life who really love food and like, really savor it and are excited to try a new cheese. My roommate is so excited. If she finds a new cheese to try it and she'll taste it like this one tastes more nuttier, this one tastes more salty, blah blah blah. Comparing it. This won't go well with this or whatever. Those are always the people that have never restricted food and have such a good relationship with food, have never seen them like not eat something because they don't want to gain weight or because it's this number of calories or because it's unhealthy. Whereas the people who I know who have had a lot of like dieting in their past are the people who kind of just eat food, don't really comment on it, and don't seem to really care about the taste that much. And it was such a paradox to me because I was like, the people that love food are never the people who are like struggling with their weight in my life.
Monica: Isn't it also interesting that people who are really tuned in and they're foodies and they get excited about the finer distinctions between two different kinds of cheese are also, in my experience, not the ones who will then finish the block of cheese. Yeah, they will focus on it, they will enjoy it, and then they're done after a couple of bites. And truly, you know, when we know from sensory research is that your enjoyment of any food, assuming you're enjoying it right, is likely to be the most intense on those first couple of bites. And then it's sort of diminishing returns after that, there's some sort of sensory dulling that happens. So one tip for people who are trying to kind of cultivate this way of experiencing food is to really focus. On those first bite or two of food, because that is when you are going to be able to get the most information and the most pleasure. It also allows you to decide whether it's worth finishing. Right. How many times have you taken a bite of something and finished it before thinking like, I don't know, what do I may even enjoying this? You know, like it's a we're not programed to take a bite of a cookie. So that looks amazing. And then say, you know what? It's not as good as it looks. I think I'm going to save that for a treat that I'm going to enjoy a little bit more and stop eating. We tend not to do that.
Juna: I remember growing up, there was so many desserts I didn't like and so many candies I didn't like and I would like say no to them If I if I didn't like them, I would be like, No, I don't like that. And it would be so easy. And as I got older, because I think I made all desserts off limits and all candy off limits, it was like all of a sudden, all desserts were good. All candy was good. As long as it was sweet. I was like, I had this just, like, so yummy. And I remember thinking, like, Man, I used to be so much pickier when I was little. I think it's because nothing was off limits that I actually had preferences.
Eddie: One of the things that I'm reflecting on, Monica, is this whole idea about that you taste it really well on the first bite. It's the same mechanism. If you walk into a room and there's a God awful smell.
Monica: Right.
Eddie: After 30 seconds, you know how you've accommodated to. So just recently I was at a farmer's market in Norwich, Vermont, this beautiful bucolic scene on a rainy day. There's a woman who took the care of growing her own plants in Costa Rica to make this one of a kind chocolate. And she had little tasters out. And I kind of grabbed my piece. I champ, I put it in my mouth. I started chomping and she like, shot me this look and yelled, Savor it. Wow. Oh, chomp.
Monica: She worked hard on that, Eddie.
Eddie: I exactly, like, freakin savor it. And, you know, she said, like, you're missing it. You know, chocolate has to melt in your mouth and a body temperature. It's now it's liquid. And now you can get the smell. And I was like, Oh, thank you. You know, you're Mike, you're my guide today. So we need to learn that. I think we need to keep on practicing. And if that's part of mindful eating. Sign me up. A lot of this sounds like something that's been out for years, both in book form and lots of conversation, which is intuitive eating. So I was wondering if you could distinguish or compare and contrast mindful versus intuitive eating?
Monica: You know, I am not sure I fully understand what everybody means by intuitive eating because I have seen that term applied to the idea that your body knows what you need and therefore if you succeed, if you are an intuitive eater, if you get that intuitive eating thing right, it will direct you toward the foods that will best satisfy your nutritional needs. I'm not sure that's true. So the example of that is if you have a strong craving for a food, that's a sign that your body is lacking some nutrients that's in that food. I don't buy it. I don't do you.
Juna: Know, I mean, they've shown this in studies, right? When they feed rats, hyper palatable foods. So things like cheesecake. Right. And they give the rats their regular food again, they just won't eat because they got used to the cheesecake and they just would rather starve than eat regular food.
Monica: So so that's one little piece of intuitive eating that I think is not at all reliable, that you can judge your nutritional needs based on the foods that you're craving. I think there are a lot of other reasons that we crave foods like that they are hyper palatable or they are suddenly in front of us, or we have emotional associations with those foods or a million other reasons that make more sense to me. And I'm not sure that our appetite is a very reliable guide to our micronutrient status. I think there's other aspects of intuitive eating that have more to do with Am I hungry now, Am I full now? And there I can get a little bit more on board? Because Yana, as you were describing when you were tracking so obsessively, you never stopped to ask, Is this more than I want right now? Is this enough for me right now? Because you outsourced that authority to your tracker and that's how you knew when it was time to stop eating is when you hit your calorie count for that meal or you know what you what you were going to eat that day because it was being prescribed from this outside source. I am in favor of reclaiming some of that authority. And as we talked earlier about trust, about starting to understand how my body feels when I'm actually hungry and what it takes to satisfy that and some trial and error, if that's what's meant by intuitive eating, I'm all about that. But I just think we can combine our, I don't know, intuition, if that's what you want to call it, or our awareness, our mindfulness with cognitive skills to make some of these decisions about how and how much and when we're going to eat. I don't think we need to turn it all over to our, I don't know, a subconscious brain or something.
Eddie: With that. I think we're going to take a quick break so I can just find a nice piece of chocolate to savor. We'll be right back. Food We Need to Talk is funded by a grant from the Ardmore Institute of Health, the home of full plate living. Full plate living helps you add more whole plant based foods to meals you're already eating. These are foods you're already familiar with apples, beans, strawberries and avocados. It's a small step approach that can lead to big health outcomes. Full plate living includes weekly recipes and programs for weight loss, meal makeovers, and better blood sugar management. Best of all, full Plate Living is a free service of the Ardmore Institute of Health. Sign up for free at full plate living, dawg. And we're back with Monica Ray Nagle, the nutrition diva. And we're having a lovely conversation all about mindful eating.
Juna: I'm tempted to say that Monica should sing. Sing us out of her mind. I'm just getting Monica, I'm going to put you on the spot. But that would be.
Monica: Yeah, you got to give me a little bit more notice and things like that.
Juna: So what we were talking about before was the idea of tracking. So first of all, is there such a way to track food that is not unhealthy? Because I have found that when I was being very, very restrictive, tracking was very, very unhealthy for me, and it was definitely something that I was using to eat as little food as possible. But as I've come into a healthier mindspace, there are times when I track my food and I feel like it's not really damaging my mental health, Like I can just like check in like how much my eating and I do default to eating a lot less protein, I should say. I do have to check up on every once in a while because I'm never eating enough and I kind of don't want to talk about it a lot of the time because I feel like there is a stigma in certain places on the Internet that if you're tracking food, you're promoting eating disorders, you're promoting restriction, and it's it's bad. So I guess the question is, is tracking always a bad thing?
Monica: This is such a good question. It reminds me a little bit about the conversation we're having right now about ultra processed foods or processed foods. And my answer to that is like, well, what is the function of the processing? I think we need to look at that in order to decide whether this food deserves to be in our food scape or not. But I think it's similar with the tracking. What's the function of the tracking? So you're right, tracking can be super useful and valuable in certain situations. It definitely a way to kind of increase your awareness about what you're eating. Some of us, it's not until we commit to some sort of tracking practice that we realize just how often we are putting things in our mouths without even thinking about it. And it is a great way to collect information and to do exactly what you're describing. You know, like just to check in, like, am I ringing the bell on protein or getting close to it? More days than not, that sort of thing. I think those are really valuable uses of tracking, but generally that can be done by tracking for a few days, a couple of weeks to gather that information and then act on it. It's not something that we then need to do forever. But I often have people come to me who have been tracking forever. They hate it. It's very intrusive. It takes up a ridiculous amount of time. It's very socially isolating. You know, they're afraid to eat things if they can't find it in the database, but they're afraid to stop tracking because they think that that is the only thing that is standing between them and, you know, obesity, that that tracker is there. You know, they're judge, jury, police, chief, everything, executioner. So when I hear somebody that has that sort of a relationship with their tracker, then I feel like, okay, let's see if we can find an off ramp for you. And are there other ways that we can gather that information that would be useful to us or increase our awareness in ways that would be useful to us that don't require you tracking, looking up every single thing you eat so it goes into your tracker. Sometimes that's a long process, but I actually created an app that was my answer to this question. That was a way that something I could give people that would offer them the awareness that they're going to kind of keep track of what they're eating and pay attention to what they're eating and the ability to assess how it's kind of stacking up nutritionally without having to log everything. It's called the nutrition GPA. I introduced it about eight years ago. It was such an interesting project. So in order to create this app and it's free, you can find it in the app stores, you answer ten yes or no questions about what you ate every day. At the end of the day, it takes you about a minute. And then based on your answers to those ten questions, the same ten questions every day. So after a few days, you got to memorized and based on your answers, you get a grade for the day, sort of like a school grade. Just kind of a quick read on how you did that day. And then we average those grades over time so that you get a nutrition grade point average. And what I was trying to emphasize there is that it's not your best day or your worst day. It's sort of your typical day that is going to determine your outcomes. But of course, we're always super focused on our best days and our worst days really don't pay attention. So I was trying to kind of bring that into balance. So the challenge for me and it's an interesting thought experiment, if you'd ever like to do it, do it before you get the app though. If you only had ten questions and they had to be yes or no questions, what would you ask? Oh, wow. About somebody's diet to gather as much information about their overall diet quality and the dietary patterns in as few questions as possible.
Juna: Wow. That is a good challenge. I kind of feel like we should send them to Monica after the podcast and see if they match up. That's.
Eddie: But listeners that go to download the app for.
Monica: They will find out what I settled on. Yeah.
Juna: Don't tell us the answer, guys. I want to try first and then. And then I'll look at no spoilers. I like that because I need to feel like I'm having a proactive role in my health. Like that's part of the reason why I love tracking is because I feel like I'm doing something and it's trackable and I can see over time. And it's funny that you say the grade point average thing because when I think about the times when I was being the most restrictive, I would have the best, best days and also the worst worst days. And I actually think like overall, if you averaged it, it would be such a worse quality diet than now, where it's like every day is kind of okay instead of like fantastic or horrible, it makes sense.
Monica: Well, right. And also, I know that you talk a lot about that black and white thinking that we fall into. And the other problem is that when people are on some sort of kick, like, okay, I'm going to get healthy, do the things and they're tracking and they have a day that isn't good. The temptation is just to stop at that point. Right? And so this was also just an approach to to attempt to catch people and say like, not, okay, we all have those days. I have those days when I'm teaching the system. I teach a program that's built around this app. And when I am presenting it for the first time, I'm always quick to whip out my app and show them like I have Chef Days by the nutrition diva app F days. You know, I have a few A-plus days, not very many, but I have a, you know, at this point four year nutrition grade point average in the B range, which for me is all it takes to know that you are getting enough of those healthy habits, often enough to actually be getting the benefits of them and not overdoing those things that we can easily overdo so often that they are really kind of undermining your health. If I see that B average, I feel like nailed it. And that's something that we can commit to long term, right? But if it's perfection or nothing, how long can we keep that up?
Eddie: Of course, you know, you might have got to school with people who had to have a 4.0. Right. And every grade mattered. But I, as someone who was never had that opportunity to get such a good average, I love the idea that averages are average and that's okay and that it really takes years to measure someone's grade point average. It's you know, even a grade point average for a semester is not indicative of how you're doing at school was just maybe that semester was better or worse as as the professor saw it.
Monica: So the longer you have been tracking that, the less impact any one day has on that overall balance. And I think that's really important for people to see when they're starting to beat themselves up about a day that just went completely off the rails and they go in and and they see like, wow, I really bottomed out today. But look, I still have a B average because I clocked in a couple of months worth of good enough days.
Eddie: So it begs my next question. As you talk about mindful or mindful eating, is it more of a skill or is it a habit or is it a philosophy? Or you can choose D All of the above.
Monica: I think it's a practice, Ed, I think, and a practice. We all have a lot of practices. You have a medical practice, the three of us have a podcasting practice. I have a mindful eating practice and you and I have occasionally enjoyed the practices, but any practice is not something that you achieve or accomplish or own or get. It's an ongoing relationship with a set of tools, and it's that ongoing relationship where the goods are, right? That's how I view it.
Juna: So to make mindful eating concrete, the only exercises that I have been told to do with regard to mindful eating have been the reason exercise. The reason. You know what? I'm going to God. So like.
Eddie: Okay, can you can.
Juna: You.
Eddie: Explain for the listeners.
Juna: What basically you get given a reason or whatever and like the teachers like passing it out. I've done this several like meditation courses and they're like, okay, first of all, they give me the reason. It's already basically in my mouth by the technique I'm shooting by the time you get to the next person. But they're like, Okay, look at the reason. And you're like looking at you like, okay, I'm bored. And they're like, Okay, now listen to the reason. You're like, What the heck? Okay, I guess so. Okay, fine. And they're like, Now, like, put it on your tongue. Like, what does it feel like? Like now start to chew it now. What does it taste like? What does it smell like? All these things. So you spend, like, whatever, a minute eating a raisin, and then they're like, and that's how we should treat food. And I was like, It would take me 23 hours of my day to eat my meals if I were eating like this. Like, truly, can you bridge the gap between how we're actually supposed to do this and what they presented us?
Monica: That raisin exercise has ruined mindful eating for so many people.
Juna: Right?
Monica: So we're here to recap, and that's why I had to I had to kind of name my approach mindful eating. And we can share some resources with your listeners in the show notes or whatever with some more exercises that they can. Do, but I'll leave you with, like, a couple of concrete tips. Let me just start with my favorite one. We've already talked a little bit about really paying attention to that first bite or two, both to get the maximum enjoyment out of something yummy, but also to make sure to decide whether or not to continue. But another one that I have found to be so impactful is something I call mouthful fork empty. And I actually have to give a hat tip to another podcaster, OG podcaster Dave Rose for coming up with this. And her insight here was that as she when she was trying to practice more mindful eating, she noticed that the minute she put one bite into her mouth while she was chewing, she was already like composing the next fight on her fork all the way to stabbing, you know, bits of lettuce or, you know, shoveling. You know, what wasn't the next one. So that the moment she swallowed, the next Sporkful was already on its way. And so she implemented a practice. And this is so much easier than what you will often see, which is putting your fork down between every bite. If I had to do that, I think I would kill somebody, right? Nobody wants to do that. It's awkward and it's just awful. But this you can do you can do it when you're eating with friends and nobody will know you're doing it. You can do it while you're actually enjoying a conversation. It doesn't impede the rest of the experience. But if the rule is and it takes a little practice, is just that you don't start loading up the next bite either picking it up with your fingers if you're in an Ethiopian restaurant or loading up your fork or your chopsticks until you've actually swallowed the bite in your mouth, a number of amazing things happen. First of all, you're much more likely to actually chew your food, which is a good idea.
Juna: To eat, a bonus of eating.
Monica: Right. You are so much more likely to notice the the bite of food that's actually in your mouth, you know, instead of already having your attention fully focused on the one that is to come, it slows you down a little bit and that's much more likely to trigger you have a prayer anyway of noticing that you've had enough to eat before you've completely over eaten because it gives your satiety signals a chance to catch up. And it's just so much more relaxed way to approach a meal. And I feel I mean, you tell me what you want you to think. I feel like that's doable.
Juna: Yes, of course. I mean, I was just already thinking about how I'm about to have dinner soon and I was like, Oh, this is going to be the new thing. I'm going to practice during dinner.
Monica: Yeah, it's very eye opening the first time you do it, because you'll notice what a little chipmunk we are. We all totally, you know, and how we're just kind of multitasking the whole time. It's really interesting. What do you think?
Eddie: Ready? I'm ready to try it. I'm looking around for something to eat slowly. I'm even thinking how it would change the experience that I had back at the farmer's market, where I was ready to chomp down the whole chocolate and just sort of take it, take a bite at a time and just experience it. I love your description of it. It just makes me want to just slow down a little bit, not to the point where I'm going to be eating for hours, but just slow down and experience.
Monica: Right? We don't have to chew that raisin a hundred times or every mouthful and definitely don't need to be putting our fork down, but we can leave it empty until we've finished the bite that's in our mouth.
Juna: So on the know of being more mindful when you eat, I think because I have my best friend as my roommate right now, we basically eat all meals together and that is so fun. I love that because like phones are not on TV is not on. It's just like we cook and then we eat. But then whenever she goes away, she's a very, very intelligent mathematician, so she's always going away for conferences and whatnot. And I have to eat alone. I know I'm like, not supposed to scroll on TikTok or watch TV while I eat, but I just like, what am I doing? Like, I'm just sitting here like, what am I doing?
Monica: Yes, I've got you. You know, and this is another big resistance to mindful eating is that we've been given the instructions that we can never be distracted while we're eating because we're going to eat too much. And definitely, like if you're sitting in front of the computer working or you're sitting in front of a screen watching Netflix or something that is, you know, with an open bag of chips, that's definitely an invitation to overeat. But that doesn't mean that if you're eating by yourself, you have to just stare in silence. And I think most of us, I think in that situation might enjoy reading. That's like the only time that I can read my novel, because if I wait till I go to bed at night, I'm too sleepy and I fall asleep right away.
Juna: Yeah, me too.
Monica: So a lot of us might enjoy reading the newspaper, Reading a novel or yes, scrolling Instagram, tick tock or something while we eat. And that can be harmless. But here's a way to do it that I think is a little bit more mindful. It's a a baby step, right? And that is can you alternate back and forth? So you sit down, you've got your your book or your tick tock or whatever. Take a few bites of food, pitchfork down, scroll for a while, you know, then turn your attention back to your plate. It a little bit more and just alternate back and forth between the two. So you're not literally doing them at the same time, but you are enjoying both activities at the same session. And I find that to be a nice sort of middle ground. What do you think?
Juna: Yeah, that makes so much more sense because there's no way I'm going to sit here in silence and just eat like it's just who am I talking to? Because I never stop talking. I talk all day long. Like, just it just. It makes no sense to me. But, I mean, I feel like that is the only way I found of not eating my food in 5 minutes is if I am eating. And then I'll, like, sit back and, like, relax against the back of my chair. And then I scroll while I'm doing that. And then when I'm ready to eat again, I put my phone down and I'm like, okay, I'll have another bite now. And that I have found to be a lot better. I mean, the worst thing is like bringing my food. So I try to never bring my food to the computer and work while I eat because then it just makes food so stressful for me. I'm like, This meal was supposed to be relaxing and now it's turned into work.
Monica: And yeah, I'm unlikely to remember anything that I eat just in front of a screen. Well, what's the point of that?
Juna: Totally.
Eddie: My go to is probably listening to the radio or a podcast. If I eat alone, that's my chance to. Listen. Take the bait. Push the pause button if needed. And sort of. And I love that idea that you're not multitasking, but you're mindfully switching from one to the other.
Monica: Right. Which is all we really can do. Isn't that the neuroscience on multitasking? Yes. We're really just switching back and forth super fast and it's actually not that efficient.
Juna: Yes. So thank you so much, Monica, for coming on the podcast today. Can you just shout out where can people find you and find more tools to help them with their mindful ish eating?
Monica: Well, I'll give you a mindful ish eating tool. You can find that on my website, way less start life slash mindful. And it's just a collection of these practices that we have found to be really helpful with people that I work with on sustainable weight management. And then I hope because your podcast listeners obviously that you'll come check out the Nutrition Diva podcast and I have a second podcast much younger actually, it's about the same age as food. We need to talk called the Change Academy. And in that podcast I get to focus more on this behavioral stuff, less on the nuts and bolts and nutrition, and more on why we do the things we do and how we can make that work better for us.
Juna: Amazing. So I think there's so much overlap between our podcast guys. So if you like our podcast, I guarantee you you will love Monica's podcast as well. And she's been doing it for 15 years. Like that is so cool. There's 15 years to go back and listen to.
Monica: Well, now that you guys are here, I think it's safe for me to retire anytime. Definitely. Please don't carry the carry this forward.
Eddie: Please don't. But Monica Ryan, the nutrition diva, thank you so much for joining us today. You and I have our homework. Our listeners have to have a direction and something to try out with lots of wonderful tools and we look forward to working together in the future.
Monica: It's been such a pleasure. Thanks.
Juna: Thank you so much to Monica for coming On today's show, we will be linking to Nutrition Diva podcast as well as all her other links on our website. Food we need to Tor.com. If you find yourself wanting more episodes to listen to while you eat mindfully, you can find bonus episodes on our membership at food. We need to talk. Dot com slash membership. And if you want to connect with us on social media, you can find us at food. We need to talk on Instagram and I'm at the official unit on Instagram. And if you want to connect with Eddie, we're going to find you. You could.
Eddie: Find me savoring a small piece of chocolate.
Juna: At a farmer's market in Vermont. Food We Need to Talk is a production of PR X.
Eddie: Our producers are Morgan, Flannery and Meghan Offtermat.
Juna: Tommy Bazarian is our mix engineer.
Eddie: Jocelyn Gonzalez is executive producer for PRX Productions.
Juna: Food We Need to Talk was co-created by Carey Goldberg, George Hicks, Eddie Phillips and me.
Eddie: For any personal health questions, please consult your personal health provider to find out more. Go to food. We need to talk. Thanks for listening.
