Supplements And Snake Oils
Want a flat stomach? A faster metabolism? Maybe to get rid of that cellulite? Well, there’s a pill, powder, or potion for that. This week we talk juices, waist trainers, fat burners, and more with Dr. Layne Norton, Professor Timothy Caulfield, and Dr. Pieter Cohen.
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Guests
Dr. Layne Norton is a champion world powerlifter and PhD in nutritional sciences. He is known for his critical analysis of health trends and debunking of health myths on social media. He also provides coaching, workout plans based in science, and hosts his own podcast, Physique Science Radio.
Instagram | Twitter | Podcast | YouTube
Timothy Caulfield is a professor of Faculty of Law and Public Health at University of Alberta who uses an interdisciplinary approach to research public representations of science, public health policy. He has also hosted a documentary series called “A User’s Guide to Cheating Death”.
Academic Profile | Instagram | Twitter
Dr. Pieter Cohen is an associate professor at Harvard University whose research focuses on weight loss, preventative medicine and dietary supplements.
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Juna: Hey, you. Yeah, you listening. Do you want a flat stomach? Do you want a faster
metabolism? Maybe you want to get rid of that cellulite. Well, today is your lucky day because we
have a pill for that. Or if not a pill, then probably like a cream or a tea or something.
Layne Norton: You know, since the beginning of time, there's been snake oil salesman who will tell
you they have a cure for what ails you, whether it be disease, body fat, whatever it is. That's one
of the oldest jobs in the history of the book is selling snake oil.
Juna: Except instead of greasy guys with cloaks full of little vials of like, weird, you know, liquids
and stuff, it's beautiful models on Instagram or really cool supplement lines with nicely designed
packaging that are basically dedicated to help you with your biggest frustration.
Layne Norton: People want to believe that there's an easy solution to their problems. They don't
want to believe that it might be complicated and nuanced. And especially you don't want to
believe that we require a lot of effort over a long period of time.
Juna: This is Layne Norton, a world champion powerlifter and PhD in nutritional sciences. He says
all those teas and powders that promise to help you lose weight or gain muscle, there's just no
evidence supporting any of that. But --
Layne Norton: Unfortunately, evidence isn't really that sexy, and it's not easy to sell.
Juna: So checking in as someone who does not sell skinny teas or exogenous ketones.
Eddie: Whatever that is.
Juna: I'm Juna Gjata.
Eddie: And I'm Dr. Eddie Phillips. In this episode of Food, We Need To Talk. We're going to tackle
those dietary supplements and cleanses and other things that promise to slim you down, help you
burn fat, increase your vigor, speed up your metabolism, all kinds of things. In other words, we're
going to talk about 21st century snake oil.
Juna: So I was so excited to do this episode because one might say I'm actually a collector of snake
oils.
Eddie: Oh?
Juna: Well, for a while, I was a treasured member of my local supplement shop's rewards
program, and I would buy all these fat burners with really exotic names of plants that like came
from the Amazon of the Sahara Desert.
Eddie: Wait, wait. The place or the company?
Juna: The place. They would come from, you know, like jungles and would be like the magical root
of the wonga-wonga tree, you know, which would magically burn fat. And I've even split a skinny
tea with my sister. So basically, this is an episode that I wish I would have had for the past six
years, because maybe it could have saved me some money. And I just want to talk about what is
actually real and what is fake.
Eddie: Juna, this sounds perfect. So where do you want to start the fat burners, the skinny tea?
Where are we going with this?
Juna: I was actually thinking we could start with Gwyneth Paltrow and her cleanse, which
Professor Timothy Caulfield from University of Alberta actually went on.
Timothy Caulfield: First, I wanted to get a sense of what people experience when they go on a
cleanse or a detox. And I also wanted to get a sense of why they might do it, what draws them to
these kind of extreme measures.
Juna: So basically, these cleanses and detoxes are where you radically restrict the food you're
eating or the stuff you're drinking for a period of a few days, or even sometimes as long as a
month. And some of the most extreme ones, you're only having a couple hundred calories a day.
Eddie: Yikes.
Juna: Insane. And they're supposed to clean your digestive system or get rid of toxins that are
building up in your liver or your kidneys. But what's interesting is the way other people react when
you say you're on one.
Timothy Caulfield: Somehow it seems less indulgent to be on a cleanse or detox as opposed to a
diet.
Juna: So when Professor Caulfield would, for example, go to his local coffee shop,
Timothy Caulfield: And they go, "Oh, you're not having a coffee today, having a green tea?" And
I'll say, "Well, you know, I'm on a cleanse." And they'll go, "Good for you." Right? You know,
almost like it's this noble thing that you're doing.
Eddie: So I love this. It's like this cleansing and detoxing. It makes this sort of intuitive sense. We've
talked in other shows about eating unhealthy foods. Juna, they make you feel crappy.
Juna: Yeah, for sure.
Eddie: And these toxins are building up. So why not cleanse yourself?
Juna: You just want to do something that like, gives you a fresh start.
Eddie: It's so appealing. I'm going to drink this juice. I'm going to steep this tea really long, right?
This is a ten-minutes steeper and it's going to clean my body out and I'm going to have this fresh
start. It's like a nirvana, right?
Juna: Yeah.
Eddie: I could see the ads. But the problem is, there's no science to any of this.
Juna: No. What?
Eddie: Well, but rest assured, I'll give you the evidence that even as we stand here and talk and
people listen, your kidneys and your liver, they're just working constantly to remove the toxins
that need to be removed. That's why you can stay alive. And drinking a certain tea or a certain
juice from wherever it is that you want to get it from is not going to change that process. In fact,
let's call these cleanses what they really are.
Timothy Caulfield: These are really crash diets. And so the reason that they appear to work is that
they're usually very low in calories, and so the weight comes off. In addition to that, it's this
scheme, this strategy that forces you to concentrate on what you're eating for a period of time. So
again, the weight comes off.
Juna: Eddie, are you telling me the reason I feel better after a cleanse is not because of the
magical properties of my cayenne pepper and lemon juice, but because basically I stopped eating
junk and only had juice for three days?
Eddie: Uh, yeah. Here's a good general rule of thumb for life and not just nutrition. If something
seems too good to be true, it probably is.
Juna: I hate that that's true, but unfortunately it's true.
Eddie: When was the last time you ever came across a magical solution to anything in real life? I've
been around for years, and I still haven't seen one.
Juna: So I think if we look deep, deep into our hearts, we all kind of know that these magical
solutions don't exist. But if you've tried everything else, you think to yourself, like, what harm
could it do, right? And speaking of harm, that is a perfect transition into the supplement industry.
Eddie: So supplements is a broad category that includes the mega-vitamins, protein powders,
plant extracts, and this goes for let me say it right Garcinia Cambogia or whatever the plan du jour
is. Juna, this is a multibillion-dollar industry. And these pills, these powders, the ones that you
used to buy in the stores or online, they're going to promise to improve your focus to help you
exercise better, improve your skin and yes, to help you lose weight. A lot of the time they'll cite
studies and they'll use these sciencey words like “clinically shown”.
Timothy Caulfield: The whole core idea is that, you know, here is this supplement that has
particular properties that's going to help you do X, Y or Z. And losing weight is often one of them,
right? And when in fact A, there's very little evidence to support the idea that they're effective in
the way that they say. B, there's evidence that a lot of these supplements are contaminated or
they don't even contain the substances that are on the labels. C, they're often harmful.
Eddie: The crazy part about the supplement industry is that it's not regulated by the FDA the way
they regulate pharmaceuticals. So, for example, when certain protein powders or other
supplements have been tested, you send them out to a third party. They look in there, they look
what's on the ingredient label, and they can't find the stuff in there.
Juna: Oh my God.
Eddie: What's even worse is sometimes there's things that you don't want in there, like heavy
metal or even steroids.
Juna: OK, Eddie, that's so alarming because do you know how much protein powder I've ingested
in like the past six years? That's quite horrifying. To find out more about supplements, I talked to
Dr. Pieter Cohen, who is an associate professor at Harvard Medical School. And basically, he
divides sports supplements into three categories.
Dr. Pieter Cohen: One is the proteins, amino acids, powders. A second category is pre-workout
supplements. So these are supplements that people take to get really pumped up right before
they start working out. And then the third category are muscle building.
Juna: So when I first got into fitness and I started following all these like fitness influencers on
Instagram or YouTube, they were all pushing this brand or that brand of protein powder or pre
workouts. And I was so excited to buy the same brand as, like my biggest inspirations.
Eddie: You sound excited even now about this.
Juna: I would skip breakfast, take the pre-workout, go to workout, have an awesome workout
because of all these compounds that would like make you workout harder or whatever. And it
turns out,
Dr. Pieter Cohen: The pre-workout space is either full of things that are going to be essentially just
selling caffeine or are going to be pushing the envelope and selling novel experimental stimulants
that could pose unknown risks to human health.
Juna: So it was only after taking my favorite flavor blue-raz pre-workout every day for months that
I found this out that it basically just has tons of caffeine. So no wonder I was having amazing
workouts. I was basically having like four cups of coffee before I went to the gym.
Eddie: So the problem with selling the caffeine is that it actually works. I'll tell you, I don't go
anywhere in the morning until I've had my first healthy cup of coffee, and that means it's pretty
large. And then I'll tell you during a long workout session or even like a long race, I'll eat those gels
and those sports bars that actually have caffeine in it. Why? Because the evidence shows that it
actually improves athletic performance. But my advice is if you want caffeine, have caffeine, but
don't have it like disguised in your, what do you call it, blue-raz,
Juna: Blue-raz pre-workout. I mean, especially since, like my blue raz, pre-workout was the most
fluorescent blue you could ever have seen in your life,.
Eddie: Something that doesn't actually occur in nature.
Juna: Yeah, who knows what dyes were in it. It was so sweet and it was so sour. So who knows the
chemicals that are put in pre-workout and plus all the other compounds they put to make your
skin tingly or like your face really hot, so you feel like you're really working out. I also wanted to
ask Dr. Pieter Cohen about fat burners in particular because those were supplements that I was
really interested in. And he said it's important to remember this with all supplements, but
especially with weight loss supplements.
Dr. Pieter Cohen: They can be sold as if they help people lose weight, even if there's not a single
study in humans that demonstrates that they actually work or even that they're safe in humans.
So what's unfortunate here is that the advertising gets way ahead of the reality.
Juna: I know what you're thinking, Eddie. You're probably hearing this and you're like, "Juna, how
could you think some bottle with like a fancy plant name and a picture of the plant on it could ever
help you lose weight?"
Eddie: And now you're reading my mind, Juna.
Juna: But in my defense, these bottles are so convincing. Like, they had all these words on them,
like randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled and having an education in science this is what I
was taught to look for when I was buying stuff.
Eddie: So at best, Juna, maybe you just wasted some money on these pills and they did absolutely
nothing. But at worst, something much more dangerous could be happening.
Dr. Pieter Cohen: Manufacturers are playing with new ingredients, actually, in some cases, coming
out with brand new drugs to introduce into their supplements to help create short-term weight
loss. The problem with coming up with new drugs and just putting them into supplements, it
bypasses the entire FDA approval process for drugs and thereby exposes people to unknown risks.
Eddie: Prescriptions or over-the-counter medications, they have to go through rigorous testing in
order to prove that they're safe and that they work. But dietary supplements are in an entirely
different category. The FDA says dietary supplements do not need approval from the FDA before
they are marketed.
Juna: What.
Eddie: So these supplements don't have the same rules. And they seem to push the limits and
what they're saying in their advertising.
Juna: So you're saying, I'm not supposed to take fat burners or protein powders or pre-workout,
but I'm a little confused because some supplements are just multivitamins. So I asked Pieter Cohen
if it's ever a good idea to take a supplement.
Dr. Pieter Cohen: There are many reasons why people need supplements, so this is situations
where you have a diagnosed deficiency in a vitamin or mineral, and you need a supplement to get
more of that vitamin that you're not getting enough in your regular diet.
Eddie: So to be really clear, if a doctor gives you a vitamin as a medicine because you have a
deficiency, take it. OK? If you're pregnant, take your folate.
Juna: OK.
Eddie: All right. So we're not scaring people away from that. It's just all of these supplements that
have nothing to do with the state that you're in. It's just that you've read the ad and you're like
kind of sold because of the science claims that are on the label. The really weird thing, though, is
that despite everything that we're saying that people that take supplements tend to be healthier.
Juna: Wait, what? Now I'm like, really confused.
Eddie: All right. So it turns out that the group of people who take supplements also have other
healthy behaviors. Guess what? They're the ones that don't smoke. They're the ones that don't
really drink a lot of alcohol. They are the ones that are exercising. They're eating better. You get it?
Juna: Yeah.
Eddie: So Michael Pollan, who we had on some prior episodes here, the nutritional journalist, said
—and I love this– he said, you should behave exactly like the people who take the supplements,
just don't take the supplements.
Juna: Okay, that makes a lot of sense.
Eddie: So as for more evidence, the National Institutes of Health supported a large population-
based study, and it concluded that if you're looking at mortality benefits -- which is kind of fancy
talk for "so are these things going to make me live longer?" -- It doesn't help with that either.
Dr. Pieter Cohen: For healthy people, people without deficiencies, there's usually no reason to
take a supplement.
Juna: Boom, mike drop. And hopefully, a lot of money saved.
Eddie: A battle won in the war against snake oil.
Juna: But the war isn't over yet, Eddie. When we come back from a short break, I want to talk
about some of the other crazy things that I was convinced to spend some hard-earned money on
to change the way I look.
Eddie: Let's do it.
Juna: Eddie, so far in this podcast, we've talked all about supplements, but they are not the only
type of snake oil out there, OK? Something else I spent money on was this piece of fabric or latex
rubber that you wrap around your waist and is supposed to give you this perfect hourglass shape.
Eddie: How do I get one? What's it called?
Juna: It is so charmingly called waist trainer, and some of these products will promise to do things
like permanently change your waistline through mobilizing your fat cells.
Eddie: Get going fat!
Juna: Or increasing heat around your middle so that you lose belly fat. Here's Timothy Caulfield
again.
Timothy Caulfield: You know, really, the Kardashians made these devices famous, and all they are
you guys is a girdle, and there's no evidence they do anything.
Juna: And waist trainers perpetuate one of the biggest myths in the whole like weight loss
supplement industry, and that is spot reduction.
Timothy Caulfield: This idea that if you work a particular part of your body, you're going to lose fat
on it. Well, that's not how your body works. Your body doesn't pick where it's going to, you know,
start burning fat.
Eddie: So even if these waist trainers actually had a positive effect and you lost weight, which
definitely does not happen, there's just no way that it would happen just around your belly. That
would be a miracle of modern science.
Juna: Which freaking sucks because everybody has certain areas they want to work on, like their
arms or their thighs, or, for me, my stomach. But anyway. And all of these companies prey on this
fact by selling you stuff like rub the cream to get rid of your cellulite or put this special lotion on
and you'll sweat more in this area and you'll lose fat in that area. News flash, if anything says
anything like that, it does not work.
Eddie: So, Juna, let's get back to the Kardashians for a second. OK, in this episode, we've
mentioned a few celebrities, and I think it's something really important to address. And that's that
the modern snake oil salesmen are actually these social media influencers or these actors or
singers.
Timothy Caulfield: Why do we follow this advice? Well, it's interesting because if we went out on
the street and said you'd think Beyoncé or Gwyneth Paltrow or Tom Brady are credible sources of
scientific information, most people, I think, would say no. They don't really believe that, you know,
Tom Brady is a scientific expert or that Beyoncé knows about nutrition science. But Tom and
Beyoncé and Gwyneth, and you know so many others, there are these powerful anecdotes, right?
They are someone whose brand may appeal to us. But in addition to that, they have this
compelling story and therefore what they say has more sway.
Eddie: Wait a minute. I really get upset when someone beats up on Tom Brady. He's so good at
what he does.
Juna: He is good at what he does, but he's an expert in football, not in nutrition sciences.
Eddie: So what are you saying? Like, stay in his lane?
Juna: Yeah. Basically, Tom Brady, if you're listening, which obviously you are, stay in your lane. But
especially if you see someone lose weight and you only know them through social media, it's so
easy to be deceived by someone's Instagram feed.
Eddie: And Juna, if you think about it, these celebrities and these star athletes are probably
actually the worst people to take advice from. First of all, their careers are dedicated to the way
they look. So they need to spend an inordinate amount of time on just looking good. Second of all,
Juna: I wish I had that time, am I right?
Eddie: And it would be great also to have the money that they have to hire the personal chef, the
personal trainer, the massage therapist that can actually like, help them out so they look as good
as they do. And that probably has more to do with how good they look than any detox or any pills
or powders that they're selling.
Juna: But it's not just like Fit-stagram models or, you know, YouTubers that are pushing all this
stuff. It's also actual doctors with actual credentials, probably just to make money.
Timothy Caulfield: Like you, I often wonder “What is going on?” In fact, I was just critiquing one
recently and I was looking at her credentials, and you're really impressive. And then on her blog,
she's pushing, you know, detoxification and she's pushing these ridiculous natural supplements
and making all these other science-free claims. And you really wonder– “ What is going on?” You
know, are they just trying to tap into this huge wellness fad in order to, you know, make money or
to create a brand for themselves? You know, I don't know.
Juna: And this really pisses me off because in my younger years, when I was more innocent and
hopeful of the world, I would see people who had titles like Doctor in front of their name, and I
would be like, there's no way they're lying. They must be telling the truth, because how could
someone be a doctor and be lying? You know, especially people like Dr. Oz. And I've literally
searched on the internet for raspberry ketones because Dr. Oz had them on his show and said that
they helped you lose weight.
Dr. Oz: And now I've got the number one miracle in a bottle to burn your fat. It's raspberry ketone,
and weight loss expert Lisa Linn swears by this supplement. They help your body burn fat. Not only
that, they slice it up inside the cells so it burns fat easier and we all want easier.
Juna So like Eddie, what is the deal like? Are you going to defend your occupation?
Eddie So they actually call Dr. Oz in front of Congress,.
Congressperson: You've been trained in science-based medicine. I don't get why you need to say
this stuff because, you know, it's not true.
Dr. Oz [00:20:36]I actually do personally believe in the items that I talk about in the show. I
passionately study them. I recognize that oftentimes they don't have the scientific muster to
present as fact, but nevertheless, I would give my audience the advice I give my family all the time,
and I've given my family these products.
Eddie: And the best he admitted to was, "ahh I used some flowery language."
Juna: AKA he lied.
Eddie: We'll use your words. Sure. I mean, if he knows that the stuff doesn't work and he's pushing
it, then you can call it a lie. What he said, though, was that maybe the best thing that he's giving
his patients, his listeners, his audience is some hope.
Juna: OK, but I don't want to pay $40 for a bottle of hope. Like I'll pass.
Eddie: Right, unless we gave you something that actually worked. Raspberry ketones don't have
any evidence that they work. But if you go to a doctor who wants to give you a real medication,
that's going to help you lose weight, this is for a little part of the population, or to use surgeries
that we know work with weight loss. Then you've got some evidence-based, and I would follow
that advice.
Juna: But that's basically for like a tiny percentage of people like that wouldn't be for the average
person.
Eddie: Yes. You know, that's for a small portion of the population. What you and I have spoken
about for these last few episodes has been finding some hope in the changes that you make within
yourself. They're simple.
Juna: Not easy.
Eddie: Not necessarily easy. But once you get started, it actually sort of builds on itself. I mean,
like, I'm doing a little more exercise. I feel better. I'm eating a little bit better. I'm sleeping better.
I'm having better relationships with other folks. Let's try going down that path. That's where the
evidence is. That's where you're going to find your own confidence and make changes that you
can sustain for the rest of your life.
Juna: So, Eddie, I think we've reached a time in this podcast where we talk about something that
can change your life in a negative way and that's eating disorders.
Speaker 1: Many people with an eating disorder at some level have the belief, I have to be thin in
order to be happy or to be a worthy human being or to live a fulfilling life. And oftentimes what
you see is that people think if I get to X place, I will be happy, and then they reach X Place and they
aren't.
Juna This is something that I've thought about a lot, and the whole topic of eating disorders is a
really, really important discussion that I think we should definitely have next time.
Eddie: Let's do that Juna.
Juna: Food, We Need To Talk is a production of WBUR.
Eddie: Our editor and producer is George Hicks.
Juna: Our supervising editor is Elisabeth Harrison, and our executive producer is Carrie Goldberg.
Eddie: With additional editorial technical guidance from Catherine Brewer, Paul Viscose and the
WBUR iLab. I'm Dr. Eddie Phillips.
Juna: And I'm Juna Gjata. If you like this podcast, please go to Apple Podcasts or wherever you get
your podcasts and leave us a rating and review. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram. That's
our online home at @foodweneedtotalk Eddie loves it. He's a superstar.
Eddie: I'm learning how to cook on Instagram. If you have five minutes, please take our audience
survey at WBRfoodsurvey and indicate whether you want to hear a second season of Food, We
Need To Talk. What are you going to do with all the money that you're saving by not buying all
these supplements and waist burners or whatever….
